California Should Require “Microstamping” of Semiautomatic Handguns So Law Enforcement Can Arrest Violent Criminals

This bill is foolish. Criminals will just use revolvers which eject no shells, or pick up a few casings at a range and toss them around wasting the time of police. It would be really nice if our representives would actually take action to control criminals, instead of grandstanding with bills like this one.

Glad to see our state government wasting its citizens' time and money by passing these useless laws that will affect only law-abiding citizens. I don't suppose it ever occurred to them that criminals might just find and use guns that DON'T have microstamping?

....or take a file and obliterate the microstamping.

....or just say "f'it, the gun is stolen so it wont trace back to me."

Read the study done by UC DAVIS on this subject.

Eventually, politicians with throw our money on this and will find out it wont solve anything.

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8148

As Devin said, or better yet what happens if a gun is stolen. Now you have a lawful citizen in the cross hairs of law enforcement for a crime he did not commit. As in any mechanical item it wears out. Now I would be committing a felony for replacing the firing pin because it is a serial numbered part. Just like how it is illegal to remove or alter the serial number on a gun.

This is not your job Mr. Fuhrer. Why don't you consider doing something that is beneficial to California like say, STOPPING the invasion from mexico? We are being invaded by a foreign country and you're trying to enact more gun legislation?

I'm not an enlightened, elite ruler like yourself, but I'm almost certain that this would do more to deal with crime than any gun-control legislation you can dream up. Of course, you would loose the some votes by blocking a slave class from entering the country (I hear that uneducated, financially desperate individuals like to vote for people who give them goodies, but that coulc be incorrect), but you're only in this to serve the best interests of your state and country right?

The Davis study is very interesting. This bill calls for stamping the cartridge in 2 separate places. The Davis study only mentions micro stamping via the firing pin, and they had trouble making that work. So it sounds like the whole think is vaporware.

Leo D. and the others of you who have commented in the last 10 minutes:

Please read what the Chancellor of UC Davis had to say about the flawed study conducted there before you cite is as the the Gospel truth:

Dear Assemblyman Feuer:
I am writing to provide corrections and clarification about a recent press release, one that references an issue of significant legislative interest, issued by the University of California,Davis.

The release, dated May 3, 2007, relates to a UC Davis research project authored by two UC Davis faculty members and a UC Davis graduate student regarding "microstamping" of some handgun and rifles. This study is entitled, "What Laser Machining Technology Adds to Firearm Forensics: How Viable are Micro-Marked Firing Pins as Evidence?" I understand that youhave authored legislation this session on this issue. Unfortunately, the release surely will have
created some misimpressions.

With this background, I would like to set the record straight:
First, this is an "Author's Report" and was posted by California Policy Research Center (CPRC), which funded the study, before CPRC's usual academic peer review and state legislative briefings, which violates CPRC's own policy. As well, public release of the report and issuance of a press release by UC Davis was premature.
Second, contrary to the press release, the Legislature did not commission the study. The study was faculty-initiated with the CPRC.

Finally, 1 understand that you have concerns about the relevance of the specific contents of this study to your pending legislation, especially with respect to (It)he age and kinds of guns used in the study as compared to those that are covered in your legislation, (2) the technology tested in the study as compared to the technology called for in the legislation, and (3)
differences in the amount of microstamping examined in the study compared to the amount of microstamping required in your legislation. While the accuracy of the findings can and must be assessed by the upcoming peer review, the press release should have not connected the
study results with the legislation.

I regret the issuance of this press release, premature posting of the report, the implication that the study pertains to your legislation, and the inaccurate statement about the legislative origins of the report. Please accept my apologies for complicating, rather than elucidating, a sensitive public policy issue on which you have taken statewide leadership.

Sincerely,
Larry N. Vanderhoef
Chancellor

UC Davis Chancellor's statement is an outstanding example of CYA. However, he does not say that the report is wrong.

Geez, all it takes is a simple file to remove the microstamping. This is not going to deter criminals one bit. It will discourage gun makers from selling guns in California. I think this is the real goal of the bill - get rid of all guns. What a waste of my taxpayer money.

This bill is garbage and will not solve any problems. First off, micro-machined marks via laser would take all of about 14 seconds to remove by any slack-jawed moron with a file or hone stone. Criminals may lack morals and be lazy but they are not, unlike some of our legislators, stupid.

Furthermore, MAAAYYYYBE you should consider introducing legislation that would not allow the revolving door approach to our criminal justice system. Like keep the knuckleheads that are involved with shootings and gang crime behind bars. But to do so, you will actually have to allocate money to new prisons, genius.

The same type of panacea nonsense was promised in Maryland with ballistic fingerprinting. They have spent a hell of a lot of money and time, to date I have heard of no cases solved via ballistic fingerprinting.

Pray tell, what % of violent crime committed in CA was committed by illegal aliens? Redirecting your efforts from trying to create another class of illegal guns (which, lets be honest, is what you are trying to ultimately do) to dealing with the problem of illegal aliens would serve the people of CA (and your district) much, much better.

Thanks for wasting the legislature's time by introducing a bill that will do nothing other than make law-abiding gun owners lives more difficult.

I look forward to supporting your opponent in the next election.

It's legislation like this that makes me ashamed to be a registered Democrat. How about we work on the real ills of California and bring more blue collar jobs into the state, let's do something about the illegal immigrant population, how about revamping our education system so we rank in the top 10 instead of the bottom 5 (http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm). You know, all of the things which actually help reduce crime rates instead of uninforceable gun laws which only hinder the law abiding.

So... What's to stop a bad guy from picking up my (stamped) casings at a shooting range and leaving them at the scene of a crime he perpetrates in an effort to confuse law enforcement?

Better yet, what's to stop him from simply filing/sanding the stamp off of the firing pin?

Do you guys even think about these things?

Assemblymember Feuer, just out of curiousity - did your predecessor happen to receive any campaign contributions from companies that wanted to develop this microstamping technology?

12:37AM my house is burglarized and my personal hobby firearm is stolen while I'm at work.

01:15AM my stolen firearm is used to commit an armed robbery, which leads into a double murder, while I'm still at work.

05:39AM I arrive home to find my house burglarized and multiple law enforcement officers ready to arrest me.

05:41Am I now get to be guilty until proven innocent thanks to Mike Feuer

how are crime guns acquired?

will gang members make sure to acquire only the few microstamped weapons that will be available through legal means in 2010 as the bill supposes?

or will they continue to use weapons that they acquire through interstate and international illegal arms trades, theft and the underground economy?

many of the perpetrators are under the legal age to purchase handguns, or prohibited by prior conviction... so how will we make sure, they too have a CSI approved handgun?

will they just use a weapon not manufactured for the California market or one that is older than the 2010 deadline? or a revolver? or a rimfire? or a law enforcement exempt weapon?

will crime scenes be contaminated with casings from other weapons?

if the author is so confident in the technology, then why does it not require law enforcments weapons to also have it? Then we could prove which cop shot the suspect when they unleash a hail of gun fire!

Why isnt one statewide law enforcement organization supporting this?

why isnt the Attorney gerneal or the shieriffs or the police chiefs or PORAC or CAUSE even vaguely interested in this measure?

Maybe this bill is ahead of its time. Maybe it wont do anything. Maybe the author will have termed out years before it is proven a failure...

As one of the authors colleagues said on the floor when this measure was being discussed. " im not concerned about the science..."

because study after study do not support the suppositions of these bell and whistle bills.

california has some of the most stringent gun laws on the books in the united states, and stilll the violence has not been curbed.

but, somehow, even with all the bells and whistles, im not sold.

Before you justify creating another gunlaw, perhaps you should look at the other laws that California has and say to youself "have the gunlaws that are already in place reduced crime?" If you are truly honest with yourself, you will answer no. Washington D.C. literally banned firearms from the city and yet the city had the highest rate of violent crime involving firearms in the nation.

Criminals by their very nature ignore laws and use stolen firearms to commit their crimes. Burdening an already overly regulated legal product with another gunlaw will do nothing to catch criminals but it does setup law abiding citizens to be harrassed and discouraged from owning firearms. Unfortunately, I believe that my "representatives" fail to learn from others mistakes or perhaps in your arrogance and ignorance, you and Paul Koretz think that you can do it better. Or perhaps this law is your continuing assault on the second amendment.

I spent 16 years in law enforcement and I still have friends in law enforcement that are opposed to this bill. The Fraternal Order of Police, PORAC, and the Attorney Generals office to name a few, don't support this bill. So how can you say with a straight face that the law enforcement community supports microstamping.

Mike and Kevin, you're pitifully wrong. And those that vote for this bill are wrong. Quite frankly, if this law passes and I were a gunmaker, I would say goodbye to California and do like Ronnie Barrett did and refuse to accept government contracts from California. Use your energy for something more constructive like putting criminals in jail. Or perhaps you want to keep them out of jail so they will vote for you.

Dear Assembly Members: how is this going to solve a problem? Since when do the violent gang members you so wish to control follow the law? Do you expect them to trade their firearms for the new and improved microstamped firearms? What will you do when those criminals go to shooting ranges and pick up a bucket load of shells to toss around crime scenes?
Let’s take this even further - gang members are not allowed to carry firearms to begin with - why won't you address that problem to begin with? How come you find it easier to control your law abiding constituents, but you refuse to deal with the ROOT CAUSE of the problem - gang members?

For those of you that are debating the facts of crime vs. guns and how these relate in regards to the aforementioned bill...... what makes you think that crime data or common sense has anything to do with this?

This bill is nothing more than another way to make firearms more expensive in california, and to drive gun manufacturers/distributors out of the state. This is just another way for the elitists to control guns; it has nothing to do with public safety.

Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.

-- Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491

Don't think of it as `gun control', think of it as `victim disarmament'. If we make enough laws, we can all be criminals.

-- Jeff Snyder

There doesnt seem to be much support for this bill even on our own website, could you address some of the issues that have been brought up by some of the people who have left comments?

1. Can you be sure this will even work if it is passed, could a file remove the microstamp?
2. If the firearm used in the crime was stolen how will this bill solve that crime?
3. Does any other state call for microstamping of firearms and if so has it worked in that state or country?

Well, this sounds like a fantastic idea. After all, criminals will surely purchase and register there handguns allowing them to be caught via microstamping of the casings.

I guess the study that shows most guns used in homicides are stolen doesn't count here. You will get a microstamp that will lead you to the original purchaser of the gun. He will tell you that it was stolen a month ago during a burglary. Where does that leave you? No where closer to finding the shooter. As a cop, I would have to say that the logic is flawed and the idea, while nice, will only serve to further restrict the law abiding gun owners that won't shoot people.

I suppose that's the reason they call this "feel good" legislation.

This ridiculous piece of legislation makes me ashamed to be a lifelong Californian. The flaws are so evident yet you persist in promoting feel-good laws that simply don't address the root cause of the problem.

A quick reminder, didn't Maryland and New York do this same folly a couple of years ago? I keep reading about their ballistic stamping failure. Maryland's state police say the microstamping doesn't help solve crimes and they want the law repealed as too expensive to manage.

For more info, go to http://www.answers.com/topic/firearm-microstamping

An excerpt: "The last test involved an intentional defacement of the markings on the pin. The pin was removed (a simple operation taking a few seconds on the M1911), chucked in a power drill, spun, and held against a knife sharpening stone for about 10 seconds. Examination of the pin showed some marking remaining at the very center of the firing pin, so the pin was wiped against the stone three times by hand, which removed all traces of the engraving. The tip was of the pin was then rounded to remove any sharp edges, placed back in the pistol, and fired with 10 rounds. No malfunctions were observed."

Pathetic. I am willing to bet the people behind the technology contributed to this fool's campaign for election. The author of the bill has no common sense. I guess it is easy to put these ignorant laws out behind your huge compound walls patrolled by bodyguards with guns. To those people who thinks this will work, wait until one day someone kicks down your door and robs/kills/maim/rapes you or your loved ones. Your stance on the right for one to protect oneself will change. I promise you that.

I just read on MSN some crazy drove his car into at least 35 people....Please introduce a bill that would ban the automobile, since these evil machines are responsible for far more deaths in this state than all firearm related deaths combines (including suicide which is the majority). Morons!

The shell casings would only lead back to the lawful purchaser of the firearm meaning wasted dollars on police man power and ineffective "microstamping" technology.

Please ask the Assemblymember Feuer for statistics of murders with a firearm that have been traced back to the original lawful purchaser.

Criminals obtain firearms by stealing them. Even police vehicles have had firearms stolen from them. Are we just going to waste money and time to find out that the firearm used in a crime was stolen?

How will this bill even help lead police to killers who have firearms without this technology?

Wow, I feel ashamed to be a California resident these days. How depressing it is to have your elected representatives wasting time and money on nonsense like this, when there are so many serious and vital issues to be addressed in California.

Oh yeah, and I'm a sworn peace officer so let me also ask what use are stamped shells? They are just a diversion -- most guns used in gun crimes are stolen. This is true rubbish.

Those who want to prevent guns from entering CA are probably jumping for joy at this incremental success. Those of us that use them as tools to protect the public will pay the price -- and eventually, so will the public.

First of all I would like to say this bill is ridiculous. Second, most of the people committing the heinous acts of violence cannot purchase a firearm in the first place, thus they are using stolen firearms. Third, if someone wants to get around this proposed law all they have to do is use a revolver. Fourth, the "microstamping" in the gun can easily be tampered with, and there's evidence that after only a few thousand rounds the "microstamping" wears off. In conclusion, I think it would be more effective to use tax payer dollars to create some sort of social program(s) that stop crime before it even happens.

You know what we need is Legislation Microstamping legislation. That way we could see which legislator and lobbyist put each and every provision in each bill; documenting their activities at the scene of the crime as it were. Accompanied by a another bill allowing criminal and civil suits for acts of legislative negligence (microstamped "trial lawyers lobby" of course) it should provide an effective bar to pointless, wasteful, and useless legislation.

You seem to be missing the fundamental problem here: criminals do not obey laws. This includes gun laws. FBI studies have shown this.

Microstamping can be defeated by firing the gun 400 times. It can be defeated by using a file. It can be defeated by replacing the microstamped parts (which are not restricted). Shell cases can be picked up at a public firing range, and scattered at crime scenes. This bill will do absolutely nothing to solve or prevent crime.

It will, however, cause problems for your law-abiding citizens. It could possibly make it a felony to repair a firearm. Your shell casings could be scattered at a crime scene, and now you have to spend thousands defending yourself in court.

You claim there will only be a 50 cent to 2 dollar cost for this microstamping. How can you claim this? One company owns the patent for this technology. Are you going to regulate what they can charge for it? Are you going to pass a law forcing them to provide it to firearm makers at a low cost? I doubt it.

Mr. Feuer, you are supposed to be a representative or your constituents. Please start representing them.

Wow, this law just gives criminals a chance to easily frame law abiding citizens. every educated person knows criminals steal, or illegally aquire guns anyways, not go to the gun store, spend an hour on paperwork, register their gun, or wait 10 days. This bill just shows further proof that Kalifornia REALLY is the laughing stock of the nation.

It is quite evident that some pro-gun fanatic posted some uneducated rant about this issue on a gun-lover webpage; and there began the traffic of gun-loving, anti-immigrant, and anti-government "folk" to this post.

While I may not agree with the above posters a great majority of the time, I have to say that the article (radio speech) and legislation are poor at best. Without imposing ideology, loyalty to petrified opinion, and pretending to know what a legislator's job is, there are legitimate policy reasons that this legislation is immature.

Ballistic identification already exists. Lay people are under the impression that tracing bullets is limited to signatures created by various firearm bores. While this provides a "ballistic fingerprint" that is adequate for identification (given that the weapon and bullet were both recovered), tool marking provides for greater identification for semi-authomatic handguns...revolvers are a different story.

The ATF maintains the NIBIN (National Integrated Ballistics Information Network). Bullets from crimes go into a national database and can be traced and tracked.

Forget all the junk about filing or replacing pins, this is of no consequence. Filing down a microstamp isn't as easy as one may think becasue it not not simply a surface imprint, and there is more than one way to microstamp a firing pin as the technology exceeds basic metal-metal working / gun-smithing.

There are a number of handguns on the DOJ arroved list and having one company make firing pins for ALL of these weapons is unethical. Even if they required gun-makers to all adopt the technology (without condisering patent issues), it would cause gun-makers to further avoid the California market. These pins have not been tested with every model of handgun and there is no evidence that it is feasible to this extent.

On the plus side...

It would be best to say that firearms are GENERALLY not used by their gun-owners in crimes. But, if detectives (probably not like the ones who posted above because they would have thought about this) had a lead on the registered gun-owner, the gun-owner could provide them with leads as to when the gun was stolen and by whom. But this hypothetical is probably the best that that legislation will do.

As I said before, this legislation is immature but not a dead-end, many issues need to be worked out. The radio address was in extemely poor taste because it implied that microstamping could have somehow prevented innocent victims from dying, or that there can be no justice for victims without shell casings with microstamps, or that even with microstaming, this case would DEFININATELY be solved. The radio address only engrains fear and misunderstanding and provides a false hope for an unexplored technology.

First off , some semi auto pistols can be fitted with "brass catchers" leaving no casings at the scene. Ammo can be of a "frangible" type like a glaser safety slug--it deforms heavily transferring maximum shock to the recipient--almost no ballistic evidence other than caliber is discernable.
I currently live in Arizona (from california) and I have an FFL license. Some guns are sold with a sample spent shell casing from the factory in a sealed envelope with all pertinent information recorded--in some states (not az) you are required to send in this sample casing as "ballistic fingerprinting" . That being the little striations , scatches and dents on that casing are unique to the gun that fired it.
Ahh . one just replaces the barrel (about $50 for a 1911 .45 ) and extractor (another $12) and firing pin ( about $12) and that casing fired from that same weapon will look very different.
The EAA Witness series guns have interchageable upper frames & barrels.. from one lower receiver I can shoot .22 ,9mm , 38super auto , .40 S&W , .45cal. They sell the "upper" & magazine for any caliber for $229. Since there is no registration for an upper receiver try & prove I had a XX caliber in the first place.
This legislation is clearly an attempt to muscle guns out of california

You were ineffective as a City Council person and now even more worthless at the State level. I am so pissed off at your ineffectivess that I plan on organizing a recall effort to vote your worthless ass out of office.

The bill has been sent to the Governors desk as I write this and having just sent him an email supporting a veto of AB 1471 I have to agree here that this is not going to do anything to stop crime or gang's shooting up the place. Forget that firing pins wear out and are replaced very easily and with after market pins that are blank.... or that using a revolver negates casings left on the ground, this is nothing more than antigun feel good politics and they could care less about any of this doing any good. But it does make them feel better about themselves and those who believe them will sleep better to, but the rest of us Californians better stay awake.... Their still trying to eliminate guns from being sold here.

Miero stamping is a great idea. Why bother with a serial numbers for id. Why not imprint the owners name on the shell case.
"ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER", sure that will work

A bill requiring gun shops to be secure might help a little... a bill requiring secure storage at home might help...

a bill that only lets criminals use guns (once legit manufacturers leave) and also automagically frames us is brilliantly evil.

(no really officer, it was stolen... They don't come fingerprint your house when someone breaks in. So even if they do find the report, do you think they're gonna CSI the place... dust my house for fingerprints... doesn't happen. They don't get a real lead.)

A bill requiring gun shops to be secure might help a little... a bill requiring secure storage at home might help...

a bill that only lets criminals use guns (once legit manufacturers leave) and also automagically frames us is brilliantly evil.

(no really officer, it was stolen... They don't come fingerprint your house when someone breaks in. So even if they do find the report, do you think they're gonna CSI the place... dust my house for fingerprints... doesn't happen. They don't get a real lead.)

I agree with the revolver comment, its just as easy to purchase a revolver (and often times much cheaper) than a semi-auto. And on top of that, most criminals dont simply walk in to your local gun shop or outdoors/sporting goods stores to buy a weapon to commit a crime with, because that would require you giving out all your information, which means instantaneous trackability if a crime is commited. In fact, almost all guns used in viloent crimes and murder are stolen (whether it be from an individual, or bought on the "black market" after they were stolen to be sold there). and most were modified illegally to eliminate, or at least severely hinder tracability. So this law will absolutely in no way, shape, or form limit, nor prevent violent gun crime, nor will it at all curb, slow down, nor lessen the amount of gun-related violence in california. Its that simple. Its just a backdoor, subversive attempt at banning guns and making them illegal, without actually doing it outright.

Cost is 50 cents to $2 ??? How about all the administrative costs to police, to laboratories, inquire, track, verify, find, visit the manufacturers files, discover, and gun owners? Considering the salaries, 2 hours of their time vastly exceeds the $.50-$2.00 cost. Costs to the manufacturers alone just to computerize, mark, administer, keep records grossly exceeds the stated costs. How would YOU like to keep all the records of every pistol code and owner data sold in California on your computer, updated continuously daily?

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